A friend of mine recently sent along an email on the candidates and their educational backgrounds, basically stating that Obama had an Ivy League education so, he is a far superior candidate. I completely disagree, I think it’s what you do with your degree (ie your experience). Here is the original email:
“Candidates’ Educational background
With America facing historic debt, multiple war fronts, stumbling health
care, a weakened dollar, all-time high prison population, skyrocketing
Federal spending, mortgage crises, bank foreclosures, etc. etc., this is
an unusually critical election year.Let’s look at the educational background of the candidates and see what
they bring to the job:Obama:
Occidental College – Two years.
Columbia University – B.A. political science with a specialization in
international relations.
Harvard – Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude& Biden :
University of Delaware – B.A. in history and B.A. in political science.
Syracuse University College of Law – Juris Doctor (J.D.)vs.
McCain:
United States Naval Academy – Class rank 894 out of 899 (meaning that,
like George Bush, McCain was at the bottom of his class)Palin:
Hawaii Pacific University – 1 semester
North Idaho College – 2 semesters – general study
University of Idaho – 2 semesters – journalism
Matanuska-Susitna College – 1 semester
University of Idaho – 3 semesters – B.A. in journalismNow, which team are you going to hire to lead the most influential
nation in the world? Regardless of what you believe in, FACTS are FACTS!”
And my response:
Would you hire a CEO just because they went to Harvard? I wouldn’t. A CEO needs experience and understanding. Even Palin (the bottom of the GOP ticket) has far more administrative experience than Barack Obama as she has actually run a state rather than just debating in the Senate for a few years and running for President. I don’t even need to mention the breadth of experience McCain has in foreign policy and fiscal reform, just look at his many years in the Senate and his repeated attempts to reign in Fannie and Freddie.
Just for posterity’s sake though, let’s look a few other great American Presidents and where they were educated (you will quickly see that experience, understanding and ideology trump an ivory tower Ivy League education).
Ronald Reagan
Eureka College
Abraham Lincoln
None
Thomas Jefferson
College of William and Mary
Dwight Eisenhower
United States Military Academy
All of these Presidents did great things for our country not because of where they got their Juris Doctorate but, because of their ideas and the their leadership.
Obama may have lots of experience running the Harvard Law Review but, I hardly see how that translates to running the country or bringing our economy back to free market success (especially after seeing his 1.3 trillion in new spending proposals and huge tax increases on small businesses).
McCain and Palin have the right ideas, they want to control spending and lower taxes in a pragmatic way that will reshape and improve the economy.
Updated: Jefferson founded University of Virginia, thank you John for the comment.
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Does anyone know the story behind the 5 different colleges Palin attended to get an undergrad?
I just don’t get it. Going to community college and then to a university–that’s a story I’ve heard of. Going to one school and studying abroad–that’s another story that makes sense to me. Going to school, taking a break, and returning to another school makes sense. But all of these translate into 2 or possibly 3 schools. What is with the 5 schools?
And, anyway, you’d be hard pressed to argue that the intellectual heavyweights in this election are on the Republican ticket. Sorry, but intelligence, judgment, and knowledge matter.
Jane-
Ivy league degress do not necessarily translate to “judgement”, that comes with experience, something Obama doesn’t have. You can be very intelligent and be a horrible President.
McCain/Palin both have respectable knowledge and outstanding experience. They will lead our nation most effectively.
You know Brandon, I might believe you except that Palin has shown a strong tendency to avoid answering questions or answering questions in detail. I watched the debate last night and the only thing Palin talked about, that was detailed, was her energy plan. Everything else was talking points and generalities.
Jefferson went to William and Mary. He founded UVA.
Judgment also comes with intelligence. I mean, Bill Gates was a pretty good CEO for Microsoft, and he didn’t have a heck of a lot of executive experience before that, right?
Tell me choosing Palin was an act of good judgment with all the other qualified candidates McCain had to choose from.
Plus she can see Russia from her house!
Brandon -
If where you go to college doesn’t matter, why did you go to Marquette and not a state school or even a community college for cheaper?
Why not Eureka?
I think its funny that Obama and Bidon both have Political Science degrees. That doesn’t warrant them to be intellectual heavyweights in my opinion.
I have yet to see a President of United States that was top of their class… they’ve usually gone through the school of hard knox or have some sort of executive experience which qualified them.
“If where you go to college doesn’t matter, why did you go to Marquette and not a state school or even a community college for cheaper?”
I can answer that question. He couldn’t get into Wisconsin.
okay, I would just like to point out that Obama’s experience within Illinois and especially in Chicago far outweigh the “experience” of Sarah Palin running a state that experiences a $5 billion dollar surplus every year. If you’re going to make unintelligent statements comparing experience; and forget judgment and knowledge, crucial as they are, do your fucking homework. It is very unfortunate that I share a name with such an exceedingly unqualified candidate as Palin. At least Obama and Biden know about how the government works and what’s been going on in the government for the last 50 years. Like, duh, what magazines do you read? And where do you get your information regarding the effects humans have on global warming or the environmental effects of offshore drilling?
msquared-
I went to Marquette University because I believed it was a great school that would provide me with a good education but, I consider myself a better business person because of my experience that I am gaining.
People care little about what University you went after you have a few years experience. Companies won’t hire you as a leader even if you went to Harvard and have no experience. We should not choose a President for his Ivy League education either, he should be deemed worthy due to his actual experience and how he used his or her education for the betterment of this country.
John McCain has a lifetime of experience serving his country bravely and effectively, Barack Obama has spent his few short elected years in the Senate serving himself and preparing to run for President.
Example of an “ntelligent but overall ineffective president: Woodrow Wilson.
Had his undergraduate thesis published while at Princeton (something that rarely EVER happens), went to law school at UVA for a year, and got his PhD in Political Science from John Hopkins. Eventually went on to become president of Princeton University. A very accomplished academic career.
Example of being an ineffective leader: Proposed the League of Nations and declared the rest of his Fourteen Points at the Paris Conference in 1919. Couldn’t even get his own Senate to approve it. So the U.S. was not even a member of its own proposed international body.
Past experience – whether you served the country by being in the military, whether you were a mayor of a small town, whether you have been in the Senate for 20 years, or whether you were a former community organizer – is relevant when it demonstrates to voters how that very experience has informed and shaped one’s governing style, leadership ability, and personal philosophy. This is why a lot of conservatives (including me) defend Sarah Palin’s small town mayorial experience because the job responsibilities she performed, even if it was just for *only* 9,000 people, is relevant to assuming the responsibilities as the second chief EXECUTIVE than having been a community organizer or serving in the U.S. Senate for several years. As Palin has stated before, she has had to work with a budget, had to make tough choices as an executive, etc. These are things Biden and Obama have done in an executive capacity. Sure, they have experience doing this or that, but that experience really isn’t informative as to how they will be in executive positions.
I remember when Scott Walker was running for governor, it was emphasized that he hadn’t finished his degree at Marquette, and somehow that made him unfit to lead. But Walker had a lot of experience in Milwaukee County. He had been in an executive position in the county. He knew the people in his area and knew what issues they cared about and he had some coherent plan to solve them. Whether or not you agreed or disagreed with him, having that kind of knowledge and experience is far more important than a semester’s worth of English lit and statistics.
I think the point Brandon is trying to make is that you don’t need to have a prestigious degree, a law degree, a PhD, or the like to be considered fit to lead the country. You need to be able to have clear, firm judgment, willingness to prioritize, among other things. In the first debate, Jim Lehrer asked both candidates what they were going to have to cut or delay if they are going to focus on the economy and other things. Barack Obama couldn’t answer the question:
LEHRER: All right. All right, speaking of things that both of you want, another lead question, and it has to do with the rescue — the financial rescue thing that we started — started asking about.
And what — and the first answer is to you, Senator Obama. As president, as a result of whatever financial rescue plan comes about and the billion, $700 billion, whatever it is it’s going to cost, what are you going to have to give up, in terms of the priorities that you would bring as president of the United States, as a result of having to pay for the financial rescue plan?
OBAMA: Well, there are a range of things that are probably going to have to be delayed. We don’t yet know what our tax revenues are going to be. The economy is slowing down, so it’s hard to anticipate right now what the budget is going to look like next year.
But there’s no doubt that we’re not going to be able to do everything that I think needs to be done. There are some things that I think have to be done.
We have to have energy independence, so I’ve put forward a plan to make sure that, in 10 years’ time, we have freed ourselves from dependence on Middle Eastern oil by increasing production at home, but most importantly by starting to invest in alternative energy, solar, wind, biodiesel, making sure that we’re developing the fuel-efficient cars of the future right here in the United States, in Ohio and Michigan, instead of Japan and South Korea.
We have to fix our health care system, which is putting an enormous burden on families. Just — a report just came out that the average deductible went up 30 percent on American families.
They are getting crushed, and many of them are going bankrupt as a consequence of health care. I’m meeting folks all over the country. We have to do that now, because it will actually make our businesses and our families better off.
The third thing we have to do is we’ve got to make sure that we’re competing in education. We’ve got to invest in science and technology. China had a space launch and a space walk. We’ve got to make sure that our children are keeping pace in math and in science.
And one of the things I think we have to do is make sure that college is affordable for every young person in America.
And I also think that we’re going to have to rebuild our infrastructure, which is falling behind, our roads, our bridges, but also broadband lines that reach into rural communities.
Also, making sure that we have a new electricity grid to get the alternative energy to population centers that are using them.
So there are some — some things that we’ve got to do structurally to make sure that we can compete in this global economy. We can’t shortchange those things. We’ve got to eliminate programs that don’t work, and we’ve got to make sure that the programs that we do have are more efficient and cost less.
I think that this shows that Barack Obama either has no idea how to prioritize or is very slow at doing so. Either way, a good executive needs to make tough yet calculated choices by going for one thing yet giving up another. A legal education at Harvard may not have taught him that.
Father McCarthy- I’m certain that Brandon could have gone to Wisconsin if he wished too. Some people actually value a Jesuit education.
Brandon- The inclusion of Thomas Jefferson on this list seems misplaced. TJ was one of the greatest minds of his day, W & M was an elite school at the time and, indeed, is still one of the best universities in the country.
Christine,
You’re right, TJ does seem a bit misplaced. And he wasn’t such a good president either. Declaration of Independence TJ and President TJ are two very different people…
Perhaps he could have gone to Wisconsin if he wished, but a pretty sizeable percentage of the students enrolled at Marquette couldn’t get into Wisconsin. Take a look at the admission standards and you will see what I mean.
So, still, no explanation for Palin’s multiple schools.
I also still think that McCain has shown truly poor judgment throughout his campaign. It is a train wreck.
“Father McCarthy” — 2 options from now on: either post a real email address to prove that you have the Catholic ordination title “Father” or I will delete each of your posts using that handle.
After 5 years at MU I don’t have time for an idiot priest or a person imitating an idiot priest.
Also, I’ve honestly had enough with the brainless “they couldn’t get into UW” statement/utterance. I never applied, and I don’t think I knew 2 people over 5 years who were at Marquette because they were rejected from Wisconsin.
Something like 40% of MU students are from Wisconsin, in the first place. Before making an ass of yourself, come up with some admission statistics about MU students being there because they were rejected from UW-Moscow.
Or just get a life.
Update: Besides, dumbass, Henak is from Minnesota.
Jane, clearly the smart people like you only stay at one school.
Actually, I went to two because I studied abroad. Again, there are common narratives that often end in a story of 2-3 schools. I’m not saying she isn’t smart because she attended multiple schools. I am sincerely curious about the story behind the many switches.
Why so, Jane? What relevance does it have with anything? I’m also “sincerely curious” about your curiousity on this.
Because she could become VP and possibly president, and information about her life story certainly doesn’t come through passive media, and active searches don’t turn up much either. We sure know a heck of a lot more about McCain, Obama, and Biden than we do about her. Gosh, heaven forbid I ask about a candidate’s background.
Father McCarthy–I can attest to that not being the case. Brandon is very smart (naive sometimes, but smart) and certainly had the grades to go to Madison if that was what he wanted. He wanted to go to Marquette. And as a Milwaukee native myself, I can also tell you that Marquette is no safety school…it’s a respected private institution in its own right with a religious grounding that is attractive to many people (and which UW certainly does not have). Next time you feel tempted to post something stupid, perhaps you should remember the old Mark Twain maxim, “Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”
(Brian, you do realize that Minnesota and Wisconsin have a reciprocity agreement, right? A Minnesotan attending UW-Madison pays in-state tuition…so as a counterargument to “Father McCarthy”, that one isn’t the most effective.)
Jane, wow, you sure are pschyzophrenic. It matters, then it doesn’t, then it does. What about the number of schools matters? Does it at all? You sure are hot and bothered about this. Please do tell me what is so problematic with the particular number of schools that she’s been to.
Kat,
His argument was about admission, not about tuition.
It matters because it’s part of her life story, and the number indicates that she had an atypical college experience, which piqued my interest. I’ve been consistent about this. Explain to me how I’ve been inconsistent.
Brian–the reciprocity agreement means that there is a rather large group of Minnesotans who apply to (and are admitted at) UW-Madison. So saying that “Brandon’s from Minnesota” really does nothing for you. Pointing out that Brandon was a very good student who enjoys having a religiously grounded environment is a much better counter (and far more relevant).
Jane,
You still haven’t said why it matters! If she went to 1, what does it say about her? If she went to 5, what does it say about her? Instead of begging the question, just state what horrors the number of colleges she has attended reveals to you.
Kat,
The primary competition for Minnesotans who are interested in Marquette is not UW-Madison.
Which is actually irrelevant to his point, which was about admission, not tuition.
Jane,
Sarah only went to college(s) and received a degree in journalism. Obama went to college(s) and received a degree in political science. Let it go. What did they accomplish with their degrees is the question. Sarah ran a family, career, business, city and state. Obama worked as an activist, attorney, state senator, and US Senator. He ran a family. Barrack & Biden have no executive experience in thier careers. Legislative yes… Executive no
Whatever you say, Brian. I keep forgetting that for some lucky people, cost isn’t a factor in their choice of college.
Of course, now I’m wondering how Brandon’s state of origin is relevant to admission…you’ve stumped me.
Kat, trust me, I’m not one of those lucky people.
Admission? The type of person from Minnesota who is interested in Marquette is probably not simultaneously interested in Madison. Not nearly as much as the University of Minnesota or various Catholic/private colleges.
Let me put it another way: I had zero interest in attending the University of Minnesota and neither did a single soul I knew before college, growing up in WI. Particularly not the people who specifically were interested in private/parochial schools.
Brian,the reason why Ms. Palin’s apparent inability to complete school in one place, and instead to travel from school to school to school to school to school is relevant should be obvious. As an employer (something that most, if not all, of the rightwingers on this site apparently are not), the apparent inability to complete something once started is a significant danger sign that I would want explained before placing the person in a position of responsibility. The same would be true of someone who could not keep a job for more than a year or two. There may be a valid reason (such as last-hired first-fired), but I have yet to hear any explanation in Ms. Palin’s case.
As for Brandon’s initial attempt to minimize the effect of Obama/Biden’s vastly superior educational background, his own choices and examples undermine his argument. If the college one attended is irrelevant, then why did Brandon pay the extra money to attend a college as prestigious as Marquette?
As someone who has been out in the business world for more than 25 years,I also would note that, contrary to Brandon’s assertions, where you went to school still matters long after graduation. While experience (when combined with good judgment) can make up for some deficiencies in schooling, doing well at a difficult school tells an employer a lot about the individual’s ability to deal with problems.
On a more political point, I would note that experience is only a substitute for training when combined with good judgment, something that is sorely lacking in the Republican ticket this year. Experience making the kinds of disastrous mistakes Sen. McCain and the Republicans have made over the past eight years (and failing to learn from them) is not the kind of experience that makes for a good president.
The multiple schools is unusual, so I assume there is some telling story about her life that explains it. That is all. Curiosity about an atypical education.
“Admission? The type of person from Minnesota who is interested in Marquette is probably not simultaneously interested in Madison. Not nearly as much as the University of Minnesota or various Catholic/private colleges.”
Uh, Brian? No kidding people who are interested in Marquette tend to go to Marquette. But state of origin is pretty–if not completely–irrelevant to whether one is interested in Marquette.
And I still find it interesting that your counter to an attack on Brandon’t intelligence was “he’s a Minnesotan” (a complete non sequitur as stated) rather than “he’s very smart, thank you for your concern, but he wanted a Christian education.” I’m not quite sure what to make of that, honestly.
Uh, Dad? It appeared two posts above you.
For goodness sake, Kat, you don’t quit, do you?
The point is that Brandon was probably NEVER interested in Madison and that, again, the average person FROM MINNESOTA who might be interested in MU probably isn’t simultaneously interested in Madison.
Consider yet another analogy. It would be as if we were all at St. Thomas and some idiot cricized my intelligence by saying that I couldn’t get into the University of Minnesota when I would probably have had ZERO interest in the U of M in the first place.
Brian, you keep responding. Apparently, you don’t quit either, so that makes us equally stubborn.
Your original quote:
“Update: Besides, dumbass, Henak is from Minnesota.”
Nothing about what kind of school he was interested in, just “he’s from Minnesota.” Total non-sequitur with no relevance to anything. If you had intended to argue that he didn’t go to Madison because he wanted a Catholic education, then why the hell didn’t you say so? It most certainly is not implied by your comment; Minnesotans are no more likely to seek a religious education than any other state.
Compare that with my original comment:
“Brandon is very smart (naive sometimes, but smart) and certainly had the grades to go to Madison if that was what he wanted. He wanted to go to Marquette.”
In other words, I was the one making the argument that you are now making from the very beginning, whereas you were arguing something that made no effing sense. And I’m puzzled and bothered by the fact that (a) you are attacking me for pointing out that your argument was ineffective and mine was better even though you apparently agree, having switched to my argument halfway through the thread, and (b) your initial reaction to somebody essentially calling your friend a moron isn’t to defend his intelligence but to say “he’s from Minnesota”. WTF? Some friend you are.
[...] Putin and Russia), Bridge to Nowhere, state trooper incident, Yahoo e-mail accounts, or educational background. When John dropped off list of speech dos and don’ts, was also instructed to watch tonight’s [...]
Well, you’re a liberal. Some relative you are.
If you can’t see that Henak would have almost no interest in Madison because he was from Minnesota so someone bitching that he isn’t smart enough to get into Madison is an idiotic statement, I really can’t help you.
Brian–so’s much of his family, actually. If Brandon disinherits his liberal relatives, he’d be left with his dad and Aunt Pam and possibly Grandma (she tells everybody that she voted for their candidate of choice, so we’re none too clear on who she actually votes for). And that’s not much of a Christmas party right there. But I “pal around with” Brandon, so that would actually make me a conservative by you boys’ “logic”.
Your assertion that Minnesotans don’t go to Madison was flat-out wrong. Your assertion that people who want to go to Catholic schools tend to go to Catholic schools was true, but in that “no sh*t, Sherlock” way that really isn’t worth vocalizing/typing (not to mention, is true no matter what state someone is from and thus has no bearing on Minnesota). Your assertion that because none of your friends went to University of Minnesota therefore almost no Wisconsin students go to University of Minnesota and by extension almost no Minnesota students go to University of Wisconsin-Madison contained so many logical errors that even Bill O’Reilly would be ashamed of it. You accused me of not giving up, but insisted repeatedly upon having the last word yourself. And the most amusing part is that none of these crazy contortions were necessary in the slightest–I made my argument (which you later co-opted) clearly and consistently without any difficulty whatsoever. As I told the “Father,” Marquette is a good school with a reputation, but you aren’t exactly helping my argument here.
If you still want to froth at the mouth and tie yourself in knots trying to explain yourself, go right ahead. You can have the last word if you want it so badly.
But I won’t be coming back here to read it–I can get my comedy from other sources.
you all are a bunch of dum asses if you think that the 5 school thing is not important.Base on my experince student who jump from course to course and school to school,do it because they cannot pass particular subjects in the course they were in.She moves from Bus.Ad to gen. studies then communication then to journalism.I would say she would not manage the complicated econ and finance classes so she think “ok maybe Gen.Studies will be easier… oh my maybe communication then”.She seem to have a thing for 3rd grade maybe that where she lost it…
Can someone please prove me right….
Marlon: And you majored in English I bet
What’s impressive is that the world is filled with a lot of intelligent people who study facts and make good judgments with those facts. Any body who votes Republican is not one of those people. I was raised in a republican military family, and when I was 18 I proudly joined the military and served in Iraq. I directly seen what has happen to our nation in the foreign policy department and back here in America with our econimic problems that is effecting the whole world. McCain is a great man and politicain, however he is not the answer, and we will all suffer another four years if he is elected. As for Palin she is a PR genious because even bad pr is good pr. She is though a horrible politician and it seems like its just a bad movie idea that she is even the runningmate for McCain.
Obama is a smart successful man who has a lot of ideas that can help out this country, and his biggest asset is Biden because he has the experiance to keep Obama level headed and give him advice.
AMERICA NEEDS A CHANGE!
OBAMA IS THE CHANGE WE NEED!!!